Thursday, May 06, 2010

Rumor Mill: UVA Offering Scholarships to Some of c/o 2013 to Defer for a Year

Thank you for your multiple tips . . . apparently the Law School is offering three-year scholarships to at least some members of the Class of 2013 to defer their admission for a year and become members of the class of 2014.  One can only surmise that perhaps too may people put down a deposit.  One of you pointed us to a thread on autoadmit (usual disclaimers apply, go there at your own peril) where a student was claiming (through hearsay) that s/he was offered $5,000/year for three years.

How does this fit in with the recently released tuition figures, which are higher for the c/o 2013?  If tuition is going to increase 8.4% for new out-of-state students, how much will a 15k a year scholarship even be worth?  Maybe someone who knows numbers could do a Monte Carlo analysis on this puppy.

That's all for now (we have a final to take today), but we'll be following this story.  Thanks guys.

53 comments:

Anonymous said...

Apparently, the class of 2013 thinks the legal market will recover by the time they graduate.

Oh, the false hope of youth and inexperience.

Anonymous said...

Same could be said for classes of 2011 and 2012.

Also: BRO!

Anonymous said...

to a lesser extent, yes. because apparently it wasn't nearly as hard to get into law school in 2009 and 2008

Anonymous said...

So if I read this right, we're pledging money to kids who otherwise wouldn't get it most likely instead of helping out our current students?

Aside from the fact that anyone willing to sign up for 200k in loans right now should be automatically rejected anyway, big ups to UVA for figuring how to get me to pay for getting fucked in the ass.

Anonymous said...

I think we should brotest this policy.

Anonymous said...

lulz at c/o 2011-13 paying for deferred c/o 2013.5's tuition

Anonymous said...

Enjoy DLA Piper!

Anonymous said...

i'm assuming most of these kids are would've been offered scholarships either way (protip whiny rich kids: a lot of scholarships are need-based).

the policy makes sense for other reasons too. a lot of us would've benefited from deferring, so it's a good idea to incentivize it. one reason 1st yr grades are such a crapshoot is because some kids are more "ready" for law school (often by virtue of socioeconomic privilege and not their capacity for practicing law) than others. i'm inclined to believe the kids being offered the deferral option are students who'd benefit from a year to focus their minds on law school and maybe pick up some of the "tips" and methods necessary to do well their first year.

Anonymous said...

1049 seems like a douche.

Anonymous said...

lol 10:49, yup it was the lack of socioeconomic privilege that got you that 2.8 GPA. i've got very average grades but not gonna pin it on some sort of lame PC excuse. loser

Anonymous said...

@11:45 - you're right man, your shitty grades had more to do with your tiny pink intellect

Anonymous said...

10:49

1. This isn't college. Most of the money is spent buying students. That's not exactly a secret either. A friend needed the 15-something a year far less than UVA needed his 175+. (Protip whiny rich kids: Score over the 25% and you can take out extra loans for coke so your parents don't find out.)

2. If I read your very weak argument correctly, you're essentially saying that UVA should take it on itself to make sure some students are ready for law school in the absence of those students ensuring that on their own. I actually agree with your larger point; I think 75% of the students directly from undergrad should be told they're accepted but come back in a year.

That said, if someone thinks they're ready for law school when they're not, why should their personal ignorance be borne by the rest of us who neither received such a benefit yet are paying for others to get it nor are the cause of such ignorance. If kids aren't ready for law school, that's their problem and not the school's or transitively, ours.

3. Most irksome is the fact that this is all on the admissions department for completely screwing the pooch managing its yield. Where have I seen money given away for going away for a year... oh yeah, that ended well.

-2:48

Anonymous said...

Fun fact: law school is graded on a curve. UVA could decide it's target student demographic is 4th graders from a special ed class, and as long as we could teach them to type before exams, we'd still wind up with a beautiful little bell distrobution. 4th graders on law review, 4th graders with < 3.0 struggling to get a job doing doc review, fourth graders with median grades thinking it's all unfair and random.

The concept that UVA would target some people to get more ready is just absurd. Law school is zero sum. Even if it were possible to help little timmy the fresh-faced college graduate, you could only do it by hurting whoever's spot little timmy takes.

Anonymous said...

As an umemployed median member of the c/o 2011 that is looking for non-legal jobs I could have landed straight out of undergrad, it amazes me that so many people are willing to take on the debt for what is now a very unsure thing.

Anonymous said...

8:49, Oh you mean like you did in 2008 when it was already clear to anyone paying attention that the legal market was fucked?

Anonymous said...

BUT AT LEAST YOU KNOW HOW TO "THINK LIKE A LAWYER" NOW!



law school is such a crock of shit

Anonymous said...

849, 1253, 906,

If you came to law school for a reason other than wanting to study the law and use a law degree you are an idiot.

Why then would you come to law school? And please don't say money, that is the worst possible answer.

Yes, I agree that "targeting" people is a dumb move, and I dont think UVa is doing it (I suspect it is just a rumor) but often it seems that direct from undergrad people experience this "come to law school for no reason" phenomenon the most.

Anonymous said...

10:49 -

I came to law school to learn how to help the underprivileged with legal issues. Why the fuck did you go to law school you holier-than-thou mother fucker.

-9:06

Anonymous said...

@ 9:06/12:23

I don't know about 10:49, but how then do you feel you don't have opportunities?

There are tons of clinical chances to do that here, so law school should seem valuable. Also that new program seems to have great professors guiding it. And there are tons of jobs that allow you to do that (so long as you did reasonably well and don't care too much about location).

Anonymous said...

didn't know i went to school with such not nice people. how embarrassing.

Anonymous said...

@ 12:53:

Most members of the class of 2011 applied to school in 2007, back in the halcyon days of "NY to 180." I suppose it would have been possible in the spring or fall of 2008 to either rescind one's acceptance or withdraw, but this in many cases would have been severely difficult given already incurred loan debt, signing leases, quitting jobs, etc. Having said that, I acknowledge that it would have been unwise to assume pre-2008 that the legal market would go forever upward. My point is only that deciding to attend law school now is incredibly more risky/foolish than it would have been in 2007; the metrics are completely different.

& 10:49am:

Why don't say money? Sure, there are many jobs that pay more, but not everyone who goes to law school has the education/skills/connections to land those jobs, whereas law school--even for those from generalist backgrounds--traditionally used to provide a relatively clear trajectory to a stable, high-end income assuming good grades from a good school.

If you dropped up to $150k to "learn the law" for the sake of intellectual curiosity alone, then more power to you, but (a) couldn't you have learned it from books--like Abraham Lincoln did--and (b) you must have a lot more money or debt tolerance than I do.

---
Also, 12:23 = Tommy DeVito from Goodfellas

Anonymous said...

when do spring grades come out?

Anonymous said...

1L year? Got my first grade in early July and my last one on July 15.

Anonymous said...

2:23,

Stop making excuses for the c/o 2011. They made the decision to attend UVa Law and to pay the $150k in tuition in the spring of 2008. Bear Sterns collapsed in March of 2008. If you didn't see the writing on the wall at that point, you were blind.

For more on how shortsighted the classes of 2011 and all subsequent classes were in deciding to attend UVa Law (at least those w/o scholarship $$$) see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis#Impact_in_the_U.S.

Anonymous said...

4:36, so I guess you made a killing off of the mortgage crisis since you could see this coming when everyone else didn't? Since this was so obvious to you, I'm sure you probably shorted a bunch of stocks and are now swimming in bills. I'm sure you could have obtained a loan with a low enough interest rate so that your massive gains from the market collapse would have more than offset the interest.

If so, congratulations! If not, stop using hindsight to explain how the c/o 2011 should have known Lehman was going to collapse or that the economy was going to implode as badly as it did.

Anonymous said...

Also, if you're in the class of 2011, wouldn't you have to start planning on going to law school sometime in 2006/2007 if you had to take the LSAT, etc.??

The economy was doing alright when the majority of class of '11 members started planning to go to law school.

Anonymous said...

7:58,

There is a huge difference between spending $200 to take the LSAT and spending close to $200,000 to attend law school. If anyone in the class of 2011 really decided to attend UVa Law notwithstanding the economic downturn the country was already in when their 1L year began because they had already spent a couple hundred bucks on tests and seat deposits, then I think this school needs to greatly raise its admission standards.

Anonymous said...

I'm not so sure it's crazy to go to law school! If you know you want to be a lawyer, and understand the risks involved, it seems quite reasonable. If you get into a school like UVA, so much the better -- third and fourth tier private schools charge just as much as we do, with much MUCH dimmer prospects. (Of course, your state school (if you're not from VA) or somewhere lower-ranked with a good scholarship is also a good choice.)

Now, maybe it's not so smart to quit a good job to go back to school right now, at least until you know the law market is back. (I think it's close, and I think c/o '11 is just a really unlucky year, unfortunately.)

But if you're straight out of undergrad, you can go into a shitty job market right now, knowing full well that you're likely to be underemployed, and knowing that you really want to go to law school in the future... OR you can go to school now, not tangle with the job market, stay on mommy and daddy's insurance, not have your work savings held against you for financial aid purposes, pay tuition at today's inflated rate rather than 2015's super-duper-inflated rate... I think it's totally defensible IF you want to be a lawyer AND you know that you're going into a lot of debt with no guarantee of a high-paying job.

Seems to me the only way this person should choose the former path is if a) he thinks the law school tuition model's fundamental flaw will become apparent soon and schools will *reduce* tuition (i.e., he's insane), or b) he gets convinced that he really doesn't want to be a lawyer. But if we assume he actually DOES want this career for something other than just the money... why not go now?

Anonymous said...

how can you even bid on firms for oci if you don't know what your 2nd semester grades are?

Anonymous said...

I don't know what 4:19's situation was, but I had all my 1L spring grades by July 1st (or 2nd at the latest). (Current 2L here.) That's the deadline, and even though profs flaunt deadlines like nobody's business, the spring one is pretty key -- Law Review has to make its invites by the 8th or 9th (and they need time to look at the diversity candidates who made top 1/3 in grades), and then OGI bids happen on the 10th or whenever. Can't say 100%, cuz who knows, you might have Kordana or something, but you should have all your grades back before OGI bidding is due.

Anonymous said...

10:14,

The deadline for profs to submit grades is always a few (very few) days before the OGI deadline.

Essentially, you do your initial planning based on 1st semester grades and what you forecast you did 2nd semester. If your 2nd semester grades turn out to be dramatically better or worse than predicted, you then have a brief period in which to rearrange your priorities.

If you're focusing very specifically on a few markets (as I would advise), the only changes to make after learning your grades would be re-ordering within those markets.

I hope this is somewhat helpful. [As a side note, I completely commiserate with you and think it is borderline shameful that profs, EITE, are not willing/forced to post grades sooner given the obvious importance of OGIs to almost all students.]

Anonymous said...

8:23, the economy hadn't tanked when we entered law school. The Dow was at 11,500 when the c/o 2011 started classes and thus was obligated to pay for law school.

You'll probably say that we should have seen this coming based upon Bear Sterns. If this is true, I'm assuming you shorted a ton of stocks because you knew the market was going to shed 4,000 points in a matter of months.

If you happened to do this and are now filthy rich as a result of foreseeing something that the rest of the market didn't, then maybe you're right. However, since you are apparently still in law school and most likely not loaded as a result of your deft financial projecting abilities, please stop using hindsight to claim the c/o 2011 should have seen it coming.

The sunk cost fallacy might apply for staying enrolled for 2L year, although this too is questionable because there was still a reasonable (about 50/50 chance IMHO) of getting a 100k+ job.

Anonymous said...

c/0 2010 here: saw it coming when i started in '07. didn't short b/c i was a broke 21 year old w/ no credit. also, worked in a firm 1L summer and byt he end of the summer work had already began slowing up and atty's at the firm were beginning to worry about the economy. also, 11,500 = a drop of 18% from the Dow's high that summer of 14,000. If you could not tell based on that 18% drop that the economy was not so hot, you are incredibly dense and will struggle to succeed as a lawyer.

Anonymous said...

Haha, right, because standard operating procedure for 0Ls was to check the DOW JONES AVERAGE to get a feel for how many jobs there will be in 4 years. Of course the economy wasn't so hot, but nobody could have predicted that the legal sector would take the hit it did. Not firm managing partners, not big-time financial guys, and certainly not recent college graduates in their early to mid twenties with zero or nearly zero experience.

Anonymous said...

Sorry about your tiny pink lack of economic knowledge/foresight.

Anonymous said...

1:24 = pretentious douche

Anonymous said...

1:24, legitimate question. If you are smart enough to be able to predict the market, why are you in law school?

Also, I'm sure that you could have obtained enough credit to short. Given how you knew the Dow was going to shed 4,000 points, you could just take a ton of credit card at 20% interest and short the market and you would have made a killing. Hell, if you had just taken a bunch of payday loans with ridiculous interest rates, your return on shorting the market from August 08 to Oct 08 would have surpassed the interest charged by payday lenders.

A person with your financial wherewithal should have realized that even with a 20% per year interest rate on credit card debt is less than the 40% return you would have received had you shorted the market over that 2 month period.

Anonymous said...

Did you use the student loan money you received for living expenses to short the market? Surely, you could use the extra $20,000 from loans to short?

If I knew it was coming, and had the ability to take out $20,000 in COL expenses at a fixed 8.5% interest rate, I would used all of it to short. That money is just sitting there waiting to be used for rent, and could easily have earned 40% over the course of two months.

Anybody who "saw this coming" and didn't do this is a far bigger moron than people who didn't see this coming. It's one thing to be like the vast majority of people and believe in at the very least a weak efficient capital markets theory, it's quite another to know there is an easy investment with a return of 30% and not take that investment.

Anonymous said...

3:12, you don't seem to have a firm grasp on how investing works, and especially in the risks inherent in short-selling. Perhaps you should read up on the topic before you attempt to discuss again it in the future.

Anonymous said...

Thanks Professor Geis! Wait, what's that, you're not Prof. Geis? You're just some yutz 3L who's all of a sudden a big expert on financial markets because you were born in 1984 instead of 1985?

When you say "the risks inherent in short-selling" ... I guess you're saying, you wouldn't want to short sell some stock because it might be go up and then you'd be screwed? But, instead of making the bad move of betting loan money on stocks, it's a good move to bet one's future career on the market -- that is, I should've said in 2007-8, "Oh no, the market is on its way down, I should not go to law school, or I should at least take five years off to do something totally unrelated to my desired career because, golly, it kinda looks like the market's going down!"

Right.

-not 3:12

Anonymous said...

3:12 here,

And I don't think you understand basic concepts of the market. One of us is right, and it's not you.

Anonymous said...

*is 3:12*
*is an internet tough guy*
*doesn't admit when he's wrong*
*goes to LS b/c business seems too scary and complicated*

Anonymous said...

This thread is not only needlessly acrimonious, it's also unbroductive.

Anonymous said...

3:12 and 4:19 should fight in Spies Garden. Or meet at a flagpole somewhere. High school motherf'ers.

Anonymous said...

11:25 -

I would pay to see this.

Anonymous said...

11:25 and 12:32 should fellate each other in Spies Garden. Or meet at a flagpole somewhere. High school motherf'ers.

Anonymous said...

SAY IT TO MY FACE

Anonymous said...

i love what exam time does to us.

Anonymous said...

3:54,

I'm ready bring it on! I will mess you up! Name the time and the place loser.

Anonymous said...

12(f) -- word is they have (unsurprisingly) canceled the waiting list already, telling those people its over

Rule 12 (f) said...

12.23: Was your friend told by email/snail? Have him/her get in touch with me - I agree it is unsurprising. TY

Rule 12 (f) said...

Actually, NM - it's on the UVA Law website. ty.

Anonymous said...

uva law has a website other than this one????